Comments on: Better Mandarin Tones Diagram http://laowaichinese.net/better-mandarin-tones-diagram.htm Tips and Strategies for Learning to Speak Mandarin Chinese Wed, 08 Feb 2012 18:29:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Snigel http://laowaichinese.net/better-mandarin-tones-diagram.htm/comment-page-1#comment-8535 Snigel Tue, 06 Oct 2009 12:09:55 +0000 http://laowaichinese.net/?p=1215#comment-8535 I found this way of looking at the third tone quite useful, even though you would have to use something else for third tone combined with another third tone. The problem is that most students never really understand the third tone theoretically, especially if they only study Chinese in China or, as in my case, Taiwan. It's very confusing to see a diagram of the normal sort, because that seems to be more or less unrelated to the way the third tone is actually used. I think both ways of showing the third tone have their flaws, but using more than one method at least helps me understand what I'm doing. Thanks. I found this way of looking at the third tone quite useful, even though you would have to use something else for third tone combined with another third tone.

The problem is that most students never really understand the third tone theoretically, especially if they only study Chinese in China or, as in my case, Taiwan. It’s very confusing to see a diagram of the normal sort, because that seems to be more or less unrelated to the way the third tone is actually used.

I think both ways of showing the third tone have their flaws, but using more than one method at least helps me understand what I’m doing. Thanks.

]]> By: John http://laowaichinese.net/better-mandarin-tones-diagram.htm/comment-page-1#comment-8440 John Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:23:04 +0000 http://laowaichinese.net/?p=1215#comment-8440 Albert, Yeah, that was my thinking... that it could be more helpful as a "quick-n-easy way to explain the tones to beginners." It emphasizes simple contrasts. (Can anyone be sure that their second tones really start at "3"?? It's kind of absurd, really.) Albert,

Yeah, that was my thinking… that it could be more helpful as a “quick-n-easy way to explain the tones to beginners.” It emphasizes simple contrasts. (Can anyone be sure that their second tones really start at “3″?? It’s kind of absurd, really.)

]]> By: Albert http://laowaichinese.net/better-mandarin-tones-diagram.htm/comment-page-1#comment-8435 Albert Mon, 21 Sep 2009 05:47:31 +0000 http://laowaichinese.net/?p=1215#comment-8435 Yes, Praat is very cool indeed, but not as handy as a little diagram. I still stick to my claim that your new diagram is better than the old one at showing what really happens, because that 3rd tone is pretty low most of the time (when it's not posing as a 2nd tone). We need a quick-n-easy way to explain the tones to beginners, and I say your new diagram is better than the traditional one. Yes, Praat is very cool indeed, but not as handy as a little diagram. I still stick to my claim that your new diagram is better than the old one at showing what really happens, because that 3rd tone is pretty low most of the time (when it’s not posing as a 2nd tone). We need a quick-n-easy way to explain the tones to beginners, and I say your new diagram is better than the traditional one.

]]> By: John http://laowaichinese.net/better-mandarin-tones-diagram.htm/comment-page-1#comment-8434 John Mon, 21 Sep 2009 04:37:08 +0000 http://laowaichinese.net/?p=1215#comment-8434 Hey Albert... You said: <em>John has drawn a new tones diagram that’s supposed to be better than the standard tones diagram at showing what really happens when native Chinese speakers talk normally.</em> Just a small correction... The tone diagram is not meant to reflect what <em>really happens</em>. We can <a href="http://www.sinosplice.com/life/archives/2008/01/21/seeing-the-tones-of-mandarin-chinese-with-praat" rel="nofollow">use Praat to see that</a>, and it's empirical evidence that's pretty hard to argue with. In this sense, as Beijing Sounds mentions, it is definitely <em>inaccurate</em>. I called the diagram <em>perceptual</em> because I feel that as a model for understanding tones and their contrasts, it may be more useful to the learner of Chinese. It's working on the subjective level, though, not the objective one. Again, though, it's not the result of research or anything. It's just an idea I had, inspired by Dr. Liao. Hey Albert…

You said:

John has drawn a new tones diagram that’s supposed to be better than the standard tones diagram at showing what really happens when native Chinese speakers talk normally.

Just a small correction… The tone diagram is not meant to reflect what really happens. We can use Praat to see that, and it’s empirical evidence that’s pretty hard to argue with. In this sense, as Beijing Sounds mentions, it is definitely inaccurate.

I called the diagram perceptual because I feel that as a model for understanding tones and their contrasts, it may be more useful to the learner of Chinese. It’s working on the subjective level, though, not the objective one.

Again, though, it’s not the result of research or anything. It’s just an idea I had, inspired by Dr. Liao.

]]> By: Jeannie http://laowaichinese.net/better-mandarin-tones-diagram.htm/comment-page-1#comment-8406 Jeannie Mon, 14 Sep 2009 19:25:17 +0000 http://laowaichinese.net/?p=1215#comment-8406 Hi Albert, I found your blog by searching for online dictionary. I love your humor and your posts so I subscribed. John's new None Diagram is very creative and I agree with it. Thanks for posting and I had to visit John's site as well. I plan to buy your book. Do you offer affiliate program for your book? I can't be an Amazon affiliate because I live in the area which is in Amazon's "no" list...lol Thanks! Jeannie Hi Albert,

I found your blog by searching for online dictionary. I love your humor and your posts so I subscribed.
John’s new None Diagram is very creative and I agree with it. Thanks for posting and I had to visit John’s site as well.
I plan to buy your book. Do you offer affiliate program for your book? I can’t be an Amazon affiliate because I live in the area which is in Amazon’s “no” list…lol

Thanks!
Jeannie

]]> By: Beijing Sounds http://laowaichinese.net/better-mandarin-tones-diagram.htm/comment-page-1#comment-8395 Beijing Sounds Mon, 14 Sep 2009 04:35:40 +0000 http://laowaichinese.net/?p=1215#comment-8395 Although I could present <a href="http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/2008/12/saturday-sounds-like-this/" rel="nofollow">more evidence</a> to support your claim, I'm still going to argue that no one comes close to my out-of-touchness. Still, I'm glad you brought John's third tone post up again. I think it's pedagogically quite useful, if a bit controversial. I've heard knowledgeable people dismiss it as inaccurate, which it is, but so is every map of reality. The question is whether you're going to speak better Zhonglish with this visual in mind than with the original in mind. My money's on the former. Although I could present more evidence to support your claim, I’m still going to argue that no one comes close to my out-of-touchness.

Still, I’m glad you brought John’s third tone post up again. I think it’s pedagogically quite useful, if a bit controversial. I’ve heard knowledgeable people dismiss it as inaccurate, which it is, but so is every map of reality. The question is whether you’re going to speak better Zhonglish with this visual in mind than with the original in mind.

My money’s on the former.

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