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	<title>Laowai Chinese 老外中文 &#187; Divergent Concepts</title>
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	<description>Tips and Strategies for Learning to Speak Mandarin Chinese</description>
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		<title>Doubt: Harder Than You&#8217;d Suspect</title>
		<link>http://laowaichinese.net/doubt-harder-than-youd-suspect.htm</link>
		<comments>http://laowaichinese.net/doubt-harder-than-youd-suspect.htm#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 03:28:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Albert</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Divergent Concepts]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Explanations]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://laowaichinese.net/?p=622</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Quiz time! 1. Look at the picture 2. Answer the question (to yourself) 3. Check the answer below (no peeking!) Question This is a picture of graffiti advertising for machine drilling a new well (jī zuàn jǐng 机钻井).  I asked my students why there were so many phone numbers advertising the same exact thing.  Some [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quiz time!</p>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">1. Look at the picture</p>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">2. Answer the question (to yourself)</p>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">3. Check the answer below (no peeking!)</p>
<p><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-664" style="border: 0pt none;" title="graffiti" src="http://laowaichinese.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/graffiti.jpg" alt="" width="498" height="281" /></p>
<h3><strong>Question</strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong><br />
</strong></span></h3>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">This is a picture of graffiti advertising for machine drilling a new well (jī zuàn jǐng <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%9C%BA%E9%92%BB%E4%BA%95">机钻井</a>).  I asked my students why there were so many phone numbers advertising the same exact thing.  Some students said the numbers all belong to the same person.  Other students disagreed.  One student said, in Chinese:</p>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 30px;"><p>Wǒ huáiyí zhèxiē hàomǎ dōu shì yí gè rén de.<br />
<a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%88%91%E6%80%80%E7%96%91%E8%BF%99%E4%BA%9B%E5%8F%B7%E7%A0%81%E9%83%BD%E6%98%AF%E4%B8%80%E4%B8%AA%E4%BA%BA%E7%9A%84">我怀疑这些号码都是一个人的</a>.</p></blockquote>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">And the debate went on.</p>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;"><strong>What is the correct English translation of that sentence?</strong></p>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">Feel free to use a dictionary.  Click the hanzi above to use an online one.</p>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">Write down or at least say aloud what you think the correct translation should be before reading on.  The answer has nothing to do with the context of the situation.  There is one grammatically correct answer.</p>
<h3><strong>Answer</strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong><br />
</strong></span></h3>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Wrong: I doubt these numbers are all one person&#8217;s.</span></span></p>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">Correct: <strong>I suspect these numbers are all one person&#8217;s.</strong></p>
<h3><strong>The Problem</strong></h3>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">huáiyí <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%80%80%E7%96%91">怀疑</a> = doubt / suspect.</p>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">But &#8220;doubt&#8221; and &#8220;suspect&#8221; have opposites meanings in English!</p>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">So how do we know what native speakers mean when they use huáiyí <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%80%80%E7%96%91">怀疑</a>?  And how do we find know what <em>we</em> really said if we use it?</p>
<h3><strong>The Solution</strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong><br />
</strong></span></h3>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">Let&#8217;s first look at what you have to say in Chinese if you really want to say:</p>
<p style="padding-left: 60px;">&#8220;I doubt these numbers are all one person&#8217;s.&#8221;<br />
wǒ huáiyí zhèxiē hàomǎ dōu <strong>bú</strong> shì yí gè rén de.<br />
<a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%88%91%E6%80%80%E7%96%91%E8%BF%99%E4%BA%9B%E5%8F%B7%E7%A0%81%E9%83%BD%E4%B8%8D%E6%98%AF%E4%B8%80%E4%B8%AA%E4%BA%BA%E7%9A%84">我怀疑这些号码都不是一个人的</a>.</p>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">So here&#8217;s how I suggest dealing with huáiyí <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%80%80%E7%96%91">怀疑</a> in different grammatical situations:</p>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;"><strong>1. huáiyí <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%80%80%E7%96%91">怀疑</a> + Independent Noun Clause </strong>(contains Subject and Verb, even if the Subject is implied)</p>
<p style="padding-left: 60px;">In this case, <strong>huáiyí </strong><a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%80%80%E7%96%91">怀疑</a> <strong>= </strong><strong>rènwéi </strong><a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E8%AE%A4%E4%B8%BA">认为</a> = &#8220;<strong>suspect</strong>&#8221; = &#8220;<strong>think</strong>.&#8221;</p>
<p style="padding-left: 60px;">The original sentence:</p>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 30px;">
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">Wǒ <strong>huáiyí</strong> zhèxiē hàomǎ dōu shì yí gè rén de.<br />
<a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%88%91%E6%80%80%E7%96%91%E8%BF%99%E4%BA%9B%E5%8F%B7%E7%A0%81%E9%83%BD%E6%98%AF%E4%B8%80%E4%B8%AA%E4%BA%BA%E7%9A%84">我怀疑这些号码都是一个人的</a>.</p></blockquote>
<p style="padding-left: 60px;">Basically means:</p>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 30px;">
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">Wǒ <strong>rènwéi </strong>zhèxiē hàomǎ dōu shì yí gè rén de.<br />
<a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%88%91%E8%AE%A4%E4%B8%BA%E8%BF%99%E4%BA%9B%E5%8F%B7%E7%A0%81%E9%83%BD%E6%98%AF%E4%B8%80%E4%B8%AA%E4%BA%BA%E7%9A%84">我认为这些号码都是一个人的</a>.</p></blockquote>
<p style="padding-left: 60px;">Which can be translated as:</p>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 30px;">
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">I <strong>suspect</strong> these numbers are all one person&#8217;s.<br />
- or -<br />
I <strong>think</strong> these number are all one person&#8217;s.</p></blockquote>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;"><strong>2. <strong>huáiyí <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%80%80%E7%96%91">怀疑</a> + (nothing)<br />
- or -<br />
</strong></strong><strong><strong>huáiyí <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%80%80%E7%96%91">怀疑</a> + Noun </strong></strong></p>
<p style="padding-left: 60px;">In this case, <strong>huáiyí <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%80%80%E7%96%91">怀疑</a> = </strong>&#8220;<strong>doubt</strong>.&#8221;</p>
<p style="padding-left: 60px;">For example:</p>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 30px;">
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">A: tā shuō tā huì lái.<br />
<a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E4%BB%96%E8%AF%B4%E4%BB%96%E4%BC%9A%E6%9D%A5">他说他会来</a>.<br />
He said he&#8217;ll come.</p>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">B: wǒ huáiyí.<br />
<a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%88%91%E6%80%80%E7%96%91">我怀疑</a>.<br />
I doubt it.</p>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">- or -</p>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">B: wǒ huáiyí tā shuō de huà.<br />
<a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%88%91%E6%80%80%E7%96%91%E4%BB%96%E8%AF%B4%E7%9A%84%E8%AF%9D">我怀疑他说的话</a>.<br />
I doubt what he said.</p></blockquote>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;"><strong>3. <strong>huáiyí <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%80%80%E7%96%91">怀疑</a> + Phrase containing &#8220;Verb Not Verb&#8221; </strong></strong></p>
<p style="padding-left: 60px;">In this case, <strong>huáiyí <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%80%80%E7%96%91">怀疑</a> = &#8220;</strong><strong>doubt&#8221;</strong><strong> +</strong><strong> Verb </strong></p>
<p style="padding-left: 60px;">For example:</p>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 30px;">
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">wǒ huáiyí tā huì bú huì lái.<br />
<a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%88%91%E6%80%80%E7%96%91%E4%BB%96%E4%BC%9A%E4%B8%8D%E4%BC%9A%E6%9D%A5">我怀疑他会不会来</a>.<br />
I doubt he&#8217;ll come.</p></blockquote>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">So in summary, if huáiyí <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E6%80%80%E7%96%91">怀疑</a> is used:</p>
<p style="padding-left: 60px;">1. Before a &#8220;<strong>complete sentence</strong>&#8221; (independent clause), like &#8220;these numbers are all one person&#8217;s,&#8221; then it means &#8220;<strong>suspect</strong>&#8221; or &#8220;<strong>think</strong>.&#8221;</p>
<p style="padding-left: 60px;">2. By itself or before a &#8220;<strong>thing</strong>&#8221; (noun or dependent noun clause), like &#8220;what he said,&#8221; then it means &#8220;<strong>doubt</strong>.&#8221;</p>
<p style="padding-left: 60px;">3. Before a &#8220;<strong>verb not verb</strong>&#8221; phrase, like &#8220;tā huì bú huì lái <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E4%BB%96%E4%BC%9A%E4%B8%8D%E4%BC%9A%E6%9D%A5">他会不会来</a>,&#8221; then it means &#8220;<strong>doubt</strong>&#8221; and you just get rid of the &#8220;not verb&#8221; (bú huì <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E4%B8%8D%E4%BC%9A">不会</a>) part.</p>
<p>If anyone else has a better way of keeping &#8220;doubt&#8221; and &#8220;suspect&#8221; straight, <a href="http://laowaichinese.net/doubt-harder-than-youd-suspect.htm#respond">I&#8217;m all ears</a>.</p>
<em>Similar Posts (computer generated):</em><ul><li><a href="http://laowaichinese.net/a-bit-about-bu.htm" rel="bookmark" title="2008 September 14">A Bit about Bù 不</a></li>

<li><a href="http://laowaichinese.net/tennis-players-and-drummers.htm" rel="bookmark" title="2009 December 16">Tennis Players and Drummers</a></li>

<li><a href="http://laowaichinese.net/whats-that-zi-thing.htm" rel="bookmark" title="2006 December 6">What&#8217;s that &#8220;zi&#8221; 子 thing?</a></li>

<li><a href="http://laowaichinese.net/unnecessary-measure-words.htm" rel="bookmark" title="2009 July 28">Unnecessary Measure Words</a></li>

<li><a href="http://laowaichinese.net/my-one-friend.htm" rel="bookmark" title="2010 May 28">My One Friend</a></li>
</ul><!-- Similar Posts took 44.309 ms -->]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>The Curse of the Convergent Concepts</title>
		<link>http://laowaichinese.net/the-curse-of-the-convergent-concepts.htm</link>
		<comments>http://laowaichinese.net/the-curse-of-the-convergent-concepts.htm#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 00:18:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Albert</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Divergent Concepts]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Rants]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://laowaichinese.net/?p=116</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We&#8217;ve talked a little bit before about concepts that are distinct in English but are the same in Chinese. Some of the examples I&#8217;ve given (I think) were: jiè 借 = to borrow / to lend ràng 让 = to make / to let / to ask someone to do something In one of my [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;ve talked a little bit <a href="http://laowaichinese.net/learning-from-others-mistakes.htm" target="_self">before</a> about concepts that are distinct in English but are the same in Chinese.  Some of the examples I&#8217;ve given (I think) were:</p>
<ul>
<li>jiè <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E5%80%9F">借</a> = to borrow / to lend</li>
<li>ràng <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E8%AE%A9">让</a> = to make / to let / to ask someone to do something</li>
</ul>
<p>In one of my English classes last week, I ran into two that never got sorted out.  Perhaps some of you can shed some light.</p>
<h3><strong>Jump / Dive</strong></h3>
<p>The student wanted to talk about the Olympic sport of diving.  That seems to be:</p>
<ul>
<li>tiàoshuǐ <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E8%B7%B3%E6%B0%B4">跳水</a> = to dive / diving (the sport)</li>
</ul>
<p>The confusion came when I said, &#8220;Doesn&#8217;t that &#8220;tiào&#8221; just mean &#8220;jump?&#8221;  Yes it does. So how would you say &#8220;jump into the water?&#8221;</p>
<p>The class was split.  Some of them said something like:</p>
<ul>
<li> &#8220;tiào jìn shuǐ&#8221; <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E8%B7%B3%E8%BF%9B%E6%B0%B4">跳进水</a> = to jump into the water</li>
</ul>
<p>But others insisted that tiàoshuǐ <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E8%B7%B3%E6%B0%B4">跳水</a> could have both meanings.  In the end, the dispute (between the students) came down to the height of the platform the person is diving from.  Since I thought that HAD to be irrelevant to my original question, I was reduced to drawing pictures (for which I&#8217;ll substitute shamelessly-stolen Google Images here) and saying:</p>
<p><strong>1. If your head touches the water before your feet, that&#8217;s diving.</strong></p>
<p><img style="border: 0;" src="http://laowaichinese.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/diving.gif" alt="" width="183" height="120" /></p>
<p><em><a href="http://laowaichinese.net/wp-admin/z.about.com/d/esl/1/0/P/2/diving.gif" target="_blank">image source</a><br />
</em></p>
<p><strong>2. If your feet touch the water before your head, that&#8217;s jumping into the water.</strong></p>
<p><img style="border: 0;" src="http://laowaichinese.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/25_jump.jpg" alt="" width="185" height="277" /></p>
<p><em><a href="http://laowaichinese.net/wp-admin/www.moc.noaa.gov/ra/images/fun/25_jump.jpg" target="_blank">image source</a></em></p>
<p>So how do you say number 1 in Chinese, and how do you say number 2 in Chinese?  There still wasn&#8217;t agreement.  Anyone like to <a href="http://laowaichinese.net/the-curse-of-the-convergent-concepts.htm#respond" target="_self">add your opinion</a>?</p>
<h3><strong>The Olympic Torch</strong></h3>
<p>I was infinitely confused when my students told me that the Olympic torch was in Guangzhou on Wednesday and from there went the top of Mt. Everest on Thursday.  The reason this confused me was other students were insisting it was in Huizhou Thursday (many hundreds of miles from the top of Everest).  I asked, as anyone would in such a situation, &#8220;So you mean there are two torches?&#8221;</p>
<p>I was shouted down with a resounding, unison, &#8220;NOOOOOO!&#8221;</p>
<p>Rather than trying to figure out why they seemed offended at the idea of two torches, I decided to focus on how the torch seemed to be violating the nature of the universe and existing in two places at once.  I got nowhere until, again, I drew a picture.</p>
<p><img style="border: 0;" src="http://laowaichinese.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/torch.gif" alt="" /></p>
<p><a href="http://www.oswego.edu/other_campus/children/images/torch_icon.png" target="_self"><em>image source</em></a></p>
<p>They immediately seemed relieved and eagerly cleared up the misunderstanding.</p>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">1. shènghuǒ <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E5%9C%A3%E7%81%AB">圣火</a> = sacred flame / Olympic flame (which there is only <strong>one </strong>of)</p>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">2. huǒjù <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E7%81%AB%E7%82%AC">火炬</a> = torch (which there are <strong>two or more</strong> of)<strong><br />
</strong></p>
<p>And I should have left it there.  But I had to ask, &#8220;So when I originally asked &#8216;Are there two torches?&#8217; what word, in Chinese did you think I meant?&#8221;</p>
<p>Some tried to deny it, but they all had to admit they thought I was saying huǒjù <a title="Look up in MDBG Chinese-English dictionary" target="_blank" href="http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqcham=1&amp;wdrst=0&amp;wdqchs=%E7%81%AB%E7%82%AC">火炬</a>.</p>
<p>&#8220;So WHY did you say there was only one, but now you&#8217;re saying there are multiple huǒjù-s ?!?!?!&#8221;</p>
<p>They couldn&#8217;t answer that and kept muttering things like, &#8220;It&#8217;s a cultural difference&#8221; and &#8220;It&#8217;s a language difference&#8221; and I simply gave up and went on with the class.</p>
<p>If anyone would like to attempt to <a href="http://laowaichinese.net/the-curse-of-the-convergent-concepts.htm#respond" target="_self">explain</a> either of these two confusing convergent concepts to me, but especially what in the world happened in the torch discussion, I&#8217;m all&#8211;um&#8211;eyes.</p>
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