Comments on: Why Is Nǎlǐ 哪里 Written Wrong?

By: Alex

Alex — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 23:23:02 +0000

I think this is a regular feature of pinyin actually… Other 3rd-tones-turned-neutral are the same way: 小姐，指甲，etc.

By: Albert

Albert — Sun, 26 Jul 2009 00:23:08 +0000

大羽,
Thank you very much for the evidence that 哪里 should never be written as “na3 li5″. I think we’re all in agreement now that, judging by the way it is pronounced (we’re talking “descriptive” here people), the pinyin should be “na3 li3″ OR “ni2 li5.” I think, given those two choices “na3 li3″ is a MUCH better option since both 哪 and 里 have 3rd tones when written by themselves.

As for tone changes and combinations, I’ve mapped them all out. I wish I had an electronic copy to show everyone, but it’s just in my book. For complete explanations and diagrams of all two-tone combinations, see page 83-84 (unfortunately the Amazon “Search inside this book” feature isn’t up and running yet).

By: 大羽

大羽 — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 13:19:13 +0000

e.g

“走吧zǒu ba”—-> “走吧zǒu(half 3rd tone) ba “

By: 大羽

大羽 — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 13:15:20 +0000

One more thing,

When a syllable in the 3rd tone precedes a syllable inthe 1st,2nd,4th or neutral tone, it is pronounced in the “half 3rd tone”, that is, the tone only falls but doesn’t rise.

e.g
“你们nǐ mén”—-> “你们ni(half 3rd tone) mén “

By: 大羽

大羽 — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 12:58:37 +0000

I searched many files in the library,the answer should be as following:

When two 3rd tones come together, the first tone changes tinto the 2nd(but its tone-graph remains “V”). e.g

“你好nǐ hǎo” and “哪里nǎ lǐ ” is actually pronounced as “你好ní hǎo” and “哪里ná lǐ”

By: Albert

Albert — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:21:31 +0000

Zero,

I think you’re right, and your explanation is great (I love the “phantom tones,” which was one of the original names for a Star Wars movie by the way, but it got changed in pre-production). But I don’t think that’s very simple. This is a very common word for first year (week) learners of Chinese to encounter and they shouldn’t be expected to figure that out on their own.

I think an alternate explanation is that it’s really a 3-3 (like you and others have said) but that the second 3rd tone just falls away as so many do at the ends of words. In the sentence: “Wǒ yào hē shuǐ” 我要喝水, the final shui3 would sound “toneless” most of the time just because it’s a 3rd tone at the end.

By: Zero

Zero — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 17:09:30 +0000

It’s quite simple actually.
It is at heart a 3-3 word. But the “li” goes neutral. Nonetheless, the phantom third tone of the “li” still carries enough weight to make the 3-3 tone sandhi come into play. Tht would of course make it into a 2-3 combination. But again, the “li” has gone toneless.
Hence, 2-5.
Na2li is the standard pronunciation.

By: Taiwanonymous

Taiwanonymous — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:27:22 +0000

I think Chinese dictionaries from Taiwan will list the tones as na3li3. There is no entry for 哪裡　in the Ministry of Education’s dictionary, but the entry for 那裡 lists the pronunciations as na4li3 and na3li3.

http://dict.revised.moe.edu.tw/cgi-bin/newDict/dict.sh?cond=%A8%BA%B8%CC&pieceLen=50&fld=1&cat=&ukey=1846592160&serial=5&recNo=1&op=f&imgFont=1

By: Antonio

Antonio — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:42:58 +0000

@大羽

You says “nǐ zhōu mò yào qù nǎ li？”
but the “na3li5″ I never heard.

Pleae don’t confuse us, ok? if you think you are right, post a audio record.

and I just ask several my chinese friends, in daily they just simply say “nǎr” ,and if read text on class ,it is “na2li3″ .

The “na3li3″ just in single word, if in sentence, very few, because it’s too formal.

By: Christophe Strobbe

Christophe Strobbe — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:08:10 +0000

Li Dong’s Beginner’s Chinese Dictionary (Tuttle, 2004) says “na3li5″. 那里 is rendered as na4li5, and 这里 as zhe4li5.